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	<title>Comments on: Testing the Limits with James Bach (part 1)</title>
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	<link>http://blog.utest.com/testing-the-limits-with-james-bach-part-1/2009/12/</link>
	<description>Software Testing Community</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Wed, 08 Sep 2010 23:09:14 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>By: The Coming Shortage of Software Testers &#124; Software Testing Blog</title>
		<link>http://blog.utest.com/testing-the-limits-with-james-bach-part-1/2009/12/comment-page-1/#comment-16134</link>
		<dc:creator>The Coming Shortage of Software Testers &#124; Software Testing Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 17:35:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.utest.com/?p=2848#comment-16134</guid>
		<description>[...] Testing the Limits with James Bach, Part I When we interviewed James Bach a few months back, we asked him how he would improve testing education if he were an all-powerful king for a year. Here&#8217;s what he said: [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] Testing the Limits with James Bach, Part I When we interviewed James Bach a few months back, we asked him how he would improve testing education if he were an all-powerful king for a year. Here&#8217;s what he said: [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Testing the Limits With Jon Bach &#8211; Part I &#124; Software Testing Blog</title>
		<link>http://blog.utest.com/testing-the-limits-with-james-bach-part-1/2009/12/comment-page-1/#comment-14943</link>
		<dc:creator>Testing the Limits With Jon Bach &#8211; Part I &#124; Software Testing Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 16 Mar 2010 14:14:16 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.utest.com/?p=2848#comment-14943</guid>
		<description>[...] A few months back, we asked your buddy Andy Muns who&#8217;d win a fight between you and your brother (this was a big debate in the uTest office). He said you would win hands down. Would he be right? [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] A few months back, we asked your buddy Andy Muns who&#8217;d win a fight between you and your brother (this was a big debate in the uTest office). He said you would win hands down. Would he be right? [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Jon Bach</title>
		<link>http://blog.utest.com/testing-the-limits-with-james-bach-part-1/2009/12/comment-page-1/#comment-14802</link>
		<dc:creator>Jon Bach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 02 Feb 2010 08:36:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.utest.com/?p=2848#comment-14802</guid>
		<description>Not-a-fan: Smart move staying anonymous.  Once you&#039;re known for being ignorant, it&#039;s hard to get people to take you seriously. No cowardice in being a sniper, just make sure you hit your target.

Unfortunately, you&#039;re a bad shot.  What James left out of his story about me being laid off is that one month after me and most of my team were notified of the layoff, my boss offered me a new job to stay on.  Was it because of my ability to influence?  I dunno, but I like to think it was due to being a graceful, professional leader who wanted to provide value despite a tough situation.  

Alas, even though I was offered a position at my same salary, I turned it down.  It was not QA-focused, it was as a SME on a project where I would no longer be leading testers. So I said no thanks.  I finished out my transition period, head held high and a new opportunity met me as I left the building.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Not-a-fan: Smart move staying anonymous.  Once you&#8217;re known for being ignorant, it&#8217;s hard to get people to take you seriously. No cowardice in being a sniper, just make sure you hit your target.</p>
<p>Unfortunately, you&#8217;re a bad shot.  What James left out of his story about me being laid off is that one month after me and most of my team were notified of the layoff, my boss offered me a new job to stay on.  Was it because of my ability to influence?  I dunno, but I like to think it was due to being a graceful, professional leader who wanted to provide value despite a tough situation.  </p>
<p>Alas, even though I was offered a position at my same salary, I turned it down.  It was not QA-focused, it was as a SME on a project where I would no longer be leading testers. So I said no thanks.  I finished out my transition period, head held high and a new opportunity met me as I left the building.</p>
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		<title>By: Testing the Limits with Michael Bolton: Part I &#124; Software Testing Blog</title>
		<link>http://blog.utest.com/testing-the-limits-with-james-bach-part-1/2009/12/comment-page-1/#comment-14740</link>
		<dc:creator>Testing the Limits with Michael Bolton: Part I &#124; Software Testing Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 18 Jan 2010 05:10:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.utest.com/?p=2848#comment-14740</guid>
		<description>[...] We recently interviewed your friend and colleague James Bach, who had high praise for a group called the Weekend Testers. Can you give our readers a quick recap [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] We recently interviewed your friend and colleague James Bach, who had high praise for a group called the Weekend Testers. Can you give our readers a quick recap [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Rajesh</title>
		<link>http://blog.utest.com/testing-the-limits-with-james-bach-part-1/2009/12/comment-page-1/#comment-14702</link>
		<dc:creator>Rajesh</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 07 Jan 2010 10:01:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.utest.com/?p=2848#comment-14702</guid>
		<description>Totally agree with Keri.

Rajesh
http://ShoftwareTestingNet.com</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Totally agree with Keri.</p>
<p>Rajesh<br />
<a href="http://ShoftwareTestingNet.com" rel="nofollow">http://ShoftwareTestingNet.com</a></p>
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		<title>By: Testing The Limits &#8212; 2009&#8217;s Top Posts &#124; Software Testing Blog</title>
		<link>http://blog.utest.com/testing-the-limits-with-james-bach-part-1/2009/12/comment-page-1/#comment-14692</link>
		<dc:creator>Testing The Limits &#8212; 2009&#8217;s Top Posts &#124; Software Testing Blog</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 31 Dec 2009 07:02:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.utest.com/?p=2848#comment-14692</guid>
		<description>[...] James Bach &#8212; Software Testing Author, Teacher and [...]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[...] James Bach &#8212; Software Testing Author, Teacher and [...]</p>
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		<title>By: Keri S.</title>
		<link>http://blog.utest.com/testing-the-limits-with-james-bach-part-1/2009/12/comment-page-1/#comment-14666</link>
		<dc:creator>Keri S.</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 22 Dec 2009 17:04:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.utest.com/?p=2848#comment-14666</guid>
		<description>Thanks for taking the time to post this. The Q&amp;A with James Bach has given me reason to believe that I may not be totally crazy and insane after all. I have always been the rogue tester... the one that didnt necessarily follow all of the methodologies... the one that works hand-in-hand with the developers... the one that finds solutions to issues  vs just logging the issue. I always seem to be searching for that &quot;right way&quot; of doing things vs the normal way\the old school way. The time spent on Plans, Cases, Scripts, Scenarios, Matrix&#039;s ~ beauricaratic papers ~ has always seemed to me to be time not-so-well-spent. I do believe that creating test artifacts is necessary but that is where my mind takes off and spins out of control with so many thoughts and opinions and trying to come up with a better way. I have had multiple conversations and presented several new processes with upper management attempting to streamline our processes but have had no luck. Time-to-market is a huge value add and it is because of these old-school methodologies that QA gets a bad wrap for being a road block and might be a direct cause of the push to outsource; but that is a whole seperate conversation. Agile Testing is something we tried at my company and I jumped on the opportunity to be the QA Manager and Tester. This concept is exactly how I like to work: fast and directly with everyone involved. Testing starts in the Dev environment alongside the developers, BA&#039;s, Clients... and you prepare regression scripts to be run in the QA environment for that particular iteration. Bugs are fixed immediately. Unfortunately, our efforts as a whole were not seen as a success. This was more to do with the political barriers (SDLC) and fear. IMO, the QA portion was a huge success. Although we will not likely use Agile for development in the future, I will use many of its processes for QA. 
The concept of uTest is a great one. I havent done a lot of testing in uTest but I have done enough to know that this is a great idea and the fast-paced exploratory-type testing is exactly what I excel at. 
One interesting note: My Management thinks very very highly of Mr Bach and is always sending Bach-quotes out to everyone. I cant wait to send this post to him and have a real discussion on it. Hmmmmmm, maybe I should sign as &quot;anonymous&quot;...naahhh... I&#039;m not scared. (Hi Paul)
~ Keri</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for taking the time to post this. The Q&amp;A with James Bach has given me reason to believe that I may not be totally crazy and insane after all. I have always been the rogue tester&#8230; the one that didnt necessarily follow all of the methodologies&#8230; the one that works hand-in-hand with the developers&#8230; the one that finds solutions to issues  vs just logging the issue. I always seem to be searching for that &#8220;right way&#8221; of doing things vs the normal way\the old school way. The time spent on Plans, Cases, Scripts, Scenarios, Matrix&#8217;s ~ beauricaratic papers ~ has always seemed to me to be time not-so-well-spent. I do believe that creating test artifacts is necessary but that is where my mind takes off and spins out of control with so many thoughts and opinions and trying to come up with a better way. I have had multiple conversations and presented several new processes with upper management attempting to streamline our processes but have had no luck. Time-to-market is a huge value add and it is because of these old-school methodologies that QA gets a bad wrap for being a road block and might be a direct cause of the push to outsource; but that is a whole seperate conversation. Agile Testing is something we tried at my company and I jumped on the opportunity to be the QA Manager and Tester. This concept is exactly how I like to work: fast and directly with everyone involved. Testing starts in the Dev environment alongside the developers, BA&#8217;s, Clients&#8230; and you prepare regression scripts to be run in the QA environment for that particular iteration. Bugs are fixed immediately. Unfortunately, our efforts as a whole were not seen as a success. This was more to do with the political barriers (SDLC) and fear. IMO, the QA portion was a huge success. Although we will not likely use Agile for development in the future, I will use many of its processes for QA.<br />
The concept of uTest is a great one. I havent done a lot of testing in uTest but I have done enough to know that this is a great idea and the fast-paced exploratory-type testing is exactly what I excel at.<br />
One interesting note: My Management thinks very very highly of Mr Bach and is always sending Bach-quotes out to everyone. I cant wait to send this post to him and have a real discussion on it. Hmmmmmm, maybe I should sign as &#8220;anonymous&#8221;&#8230;naahhh&#8230; I&#8217;m not scared. (Hi Paul)<br />
~ Keri</p>
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		<title>By: Michael Bolton</title>
		<link>http://blog.utest.com/testing-the-limits-with-james-bach-part-1/2009/12/comment-page-1/#comment-14660</link>
		<dc:creator>Michael Bolton</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 20 Dec 2009 01:20:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.utest.com/?p=2848#comment-14660</guid>
		<description>On James&#039; comments on numbers and &quot;empty&quot; stories:  some people believe that James and I hate numbers.  We don&#039;t.  We love them, just as we love children and animals.  And, therefore, we hate to see them abused, put to evil purposes, enlisted unwillingly into someone else&#039;s army.

On Not-a-Fan&#039;s comment.:  Notice that Not-a-Fan, with some potentially valid criticisms, is too shy to sign.  Note also that James, with reasoned responses to those potentially valid criticisms, is brave enough to sign. What&#039;s up with that?

I&#039;ve noticed this pattern in my own blog, too.  For example, note the reaction from Anonymous here: http://www.developsense.com/2009/09/testing-checking-and-changing-language.html

To me, this is an important issue for the testing community.  Why be afraid to speak your truth?  And having done so, why be reluctant to identify yourself?  Anonymity would make sense if, say, you were making some kind of argument that is directly at odds with your organization&#039;s stated policy, or that threatens some value other than your reputation.  In fact, a reasoned criticism threatens neither, and neither &quot;Not-A-Fan&quot; (in James&#039; case) or &quot;Anonymous&quot; (in mine) have said anything that appears to fall into those categories.  

The only thing that anonymity affords here is the opportunity to say &quot;insane blathering&quot; without having to take responsibility for saying it.  That&#039;s not being a critic; that&#039;s being a wimp.

---Michael B. (brave enough to sign)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On James&#8217; comments on numbers and &#8220;empty&#8221; stories:  some people believe that James and I hate numbers.  We don&#8217;t.  We love them, just as we love children and animals.  And, therefore, we hate to see them abused, put to evil purposes, enlisted unwillingly into someone else&#8217;s army.</p>
<p>On Not-a-Fan&#8217;s comment.:  Notice that Not-a-Fan, with some potentially valid criticisms, is too shy to sign.  Note also that James, with reasoned responses to those potentially valid criticisms, is brave enough to sign. What&#8217;s up with that?</p>
<p>I&#8217;ve noticed this pattern in my own blog, too.  For example, note the reaction from Anonymous here: <a href="http://www.developsense.com/2009/09/testing-checking-and-changing-language.html" rel="nofollow">http://www.developsense.com/2009/09/testing-checking-and-changing-language.html</a></p>
<p>To me, this is an important issue for the testing community.  Why be afraid to speak your truth?  And having done so, why be reluctant to identify yourself?  Anonymity would make sense if, say, you were making some kind of argument that is directly at odds with your organization&#8217;s stated policy, or that threatens some value other than your reputation.  In fact, a reasoned criticism threatens neither, and neither &#8220;Not-A-Fan&#8221; (in James&#8217; case) or &#8220;Anonymous&#8221; (in mine) have said anything that appears to fall into those categories.  </p>
<p>The only thing that anonymity affords here is the opportunity to say &#8220;insane blathering&#8221; without having to take responsibility for saying it.  That&#8217;s not being a critic; that&#8217;s being a wimp.</p>
<p>&#8212;Michael B. (brave enough to sign)</p>
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		<title>By: Matt Johnston</title>
		<link>http://blog.utest.com/testing-the-limits-with-james-bach-part-1/2009/12/comment-page-1/#comment-14658</link>
		<dc:creator>Matt Johnston</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 19 Dec 2009 03:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.utest.com/?p=2848#comment-14658</guid>
		<description>That&#039;s a valid point.  We have a mantra at uTest:  &quot;numbers can be tortured until they tell you whatever you want to hear&quot;.  Said differently, numbers -- absent proper context -- can be dangerous.  We&#039;re a numbers-driven company in nearly all of our activities.  But incomplete, misdirected or meaningless numbers (eg: devoid of context) give false confidence and contribute to poor decision making.

In my experience, this extends beyond the world of testing.  It&#039;s a truth that applies to most (if not all) disciplines -- whether it&#039;s marketing, product, finance or other.

-Matt J.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That&#8217;s a valid point.  We have a mantra at uTest:  &#8220;numbers can be tortured until they tell you whatever you want to hear&#8221;.  Said differently, numbers &#8212; absent proper context &#8212; can be dangerous.  We&#8217;re a numbers-driven company in nearly all of our activities.  But incomplete, misdirected or meaningless numbers (eg: devoid of context) give false confidence and contribute to poor decision making.</p>
<p>In my experience, this extends beyond the world of testing.  It&#8217;s a truth that applies to most (if not all) disciplines &#8212; whether it&#8217;s marketing, product, finance or other.</p>
<p>-Matt J.</p>
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		<title>By: James Bach</title>
		<link>http://blog.utest.com/testing-the-limits-with-james-bach-part-1/2009/12/comment-page-1/#comment-14656</link>
		<dc:creator>James Bach</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 18 Dec 2009 23:54:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.utest.com/?p=2848#comment-14656</guid>
		<description>I want to disagree with myself. This has been bugging me...

I wrote: &quot;...an empty *story* about testing couched in numbers to make it look rational&quot;

It was NOT an empty story. It was a story justified using empty numbers. The difference is important. Actually it&#039;s one of the reasons these numbers continue to be used in our business.

For instance, you might feel good. You might say &quot;I feel like an 8 on a scale of 1 to 10.&quot; The &quot;8&quot; represents &quot;good&quot;. The eight does not say anything that &quot;good&quot; does not already say, even though it looks more objective and scientific. The selection of the number 8 is subject to all sorts of unconscious biases.

The thing about numbers is that they are easily separated from their context. I think that&#039;s one reason people like them. &quot;We have 94% coverage&quot; substitutes for a conversation about what we tested. But as a man who loves mathematics, I cannot in good conscience allow that to happen to my numbers. Therefore, when I use numbers, I keep the context close by. And I don&#039;t use numbers when they contribute nothing material to my point.

In the example I gave, I was not making up the need for testing, I was making up numbers that communicated nothing more than &quot;I think we need to test this thing, here, and I think that will take some time.&quot; These days, I forego the numbers and have the conversation.

-- James</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I want to disagree with myself. This has been bugging me&#8230;</p>
<p>I wrote: &#8220;&#8230;an empty *story* about testing couched in numbers to make it look rational&#8221;</p>
<p>It was NOT an empty story. It was a story justified using empty numbers. The difference is important. Actually it&#8217;s one of the reasons these numbers continue to be used in our business.</p>
<p>For instance, you might feel good. You might say &#8220;I feel like an 8 on a scale of 1 to 10.&#8221; The &#8220;8&#8243; represents &#8220;good&#8221;. The eight does not say anything that &#8220;good&#8221; does not already say, even though it looks more objective and scientific. The selection of the number 8 is subject to all sorts of unconscious biases.</p>
<p>The thing about numbers is that they are easily separated from their context. I think that&#8217;s one reason people like them. &#8220;We have 94% coverage&#8221; substitutes for a conversation about what we tested. But as a man who loves mathematics, I cannot in good conscience allow that to happen to my numbers. Therefore, when I use numbers, I keep the context close by. And I don&#8217;t use numbers when they contribute nothing material to my point.</p>
<p>In the example I gave, I was not making up the need for testing, I was making up numbers that communicated nothing more than &#8220;I think we need to test this thing, here, and I think that will take some time.&#8221; These days, I forego the numbers and have the conversation.</p>
<p>&#8211; James</p>
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